Lettre d'Abraham Rotstein (10 juillet 1956) - Revision history

Santiago Pinault at 14:48, 8 September 2019

2019-09-08T14:48:00Z

Santiago Pinault at 14:42, 8 September 2019

2019-09-08T14:42:50Z

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	I think that the entrenched compulsive drive for "more" of the West - of which industrial is the servant - has behind it a great vision of abundance on earth. In addition, a factor which is sometimes lost sight of, is that industrial technology provides not only abundance but certainty<ref group="p">And {useless} new hazards "thrills", threats plagues, and storms.</ref>, effectively alleviating that aspect of Nature's pressure which is erratic and capricious e.g. storms, famines, plagues, etc. (The term abundance is used here to comprise both these elements. Until it is achieved we shall be in a condition of perpetual "scarcity".)<ref group="p">The dizzy feats were Not in the 'abundance' direction, the "Great Western", the transatlantic cable, the Zeppelin, the North Pole drive, the <u>Eiffel Tower</u>, that symbole of it al. Now T.V., radio radar, submarine, the car…</ref>		I think that the entrenched compulsive drive for "more" of the West - of which industrial is the servant - has behind it a great vision of abundance on earth. In addition, a factor which is sometimes lost sight of, is that industrial technology provides not only abundance but certainty<ref group="p">And {useless} new hazards "thrills", threats plagues, and storms.</ref>, effectively alleviating that aspect of Nature's pressure which is erratic and capricious e.g. storms, famines, plagues, etc. (The term abundance is used here to comprise both these elements. Until it is achieved we shall be in a condition of perpetual "scarcity".)<ref group="p">The dizzy feats were Not in the 'abundance' direction, the "Great Western", the transatlantic cable, the Zeppelin, the North Pole drive, the <u>Eiffel Tower</u>, that symbole of it al. Now T.V., radio radar, submarine, the car…</ref>

	~~Perhaps more has been revealed to us than knowledge of death from the story of the Fall of Man~~ - ~~I think this vision of abundance derives from the legend of man~~'s original ~~state~~ - ~~the Garden of~~ Eden. We have not resigned ourselves to its loss - we have engaged in a fierce, irresistible, ruthless, and sometimes mad drive to recapture the vision on earth.		Peut-être que plus que la conscience de la mort nous a été révélé avec l'histoire de la Chute de l'Homme - je pense que cette conception de l'abondance provient de la légende de l'état original de l'être humain - le Jardin d'Eden. We have not resigned ourselves to its loss - we have engaged in a fierce, irresistible, ruthless, and sometimes mad drive to recapture the vision on earth.

	~~You have talked about a compulsive~~, ~~eschatological element in Christianity~~, ~~with Jesus believing that the end of the world was imminent~~. ([[Abraham_Rotstein,~~_Weekend_Notes_I~~#~~The_Reality_of_Society~~\|Notes on Feb. 25/26 p. 5]]) Je me demande si à la fois le messianisme juif eschatologique (parfois cité comme étant le moteur du “progrès” de notre société) et la notion chrétienne {{Page \|n°=114}} du Royaume du Paradis ne sont pas des images partielles du Jardin d'Eden perdu, même allowing for significant differences in oral visions. Interestingly enough, non of the three have economies. (Adam is only a curator).		Vous avez parlé d'un élément compulsif [“compulsive”], eschatologique de la Chrétienté, avec Jésus croyant que la fin du monde était imminente. ([[Abraham_Rotstein,_Notes_de_fin_de_semaine_I#La_Réalité_de_la_société\|Notes on Feb. 25/26 p. 5]]) Je me demande si à la fois le messianisme juif eschatologique (parfois cité comme étant le moteur du “progrès” de notre société) et la notion chrétienne {{Page \|n°=114}} du Royaume du Paradis ne sont pas des images partielles du Jardin d'Eden perdu, même allowing for significant differences in oral visions. Interestingly enough, non of the three have economies. (Adam is only a curator).

	The Fall of Man has given us the revelation of abundance as well as the notion that the present state of the economy is a curse - the substantive content of man's atonement:		The Fall of Man has given us the revelation of abundance as well as the notion that the present state of the economy is a curse - the substantive content of man's atonement:

Santiago Pinault: /* Informations sur la lettre */

2019-09-01T01:43:19Z

Informations sur la lettre

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	== Informations sur la lettre ==		== Informations sur la lettre ==
	'''AKP''' : [[49/05]], 112-117		'''AKP''' : [[49/05]], 112-117<br />
	'''Autres langues''' :		'''Autres langues''' :
	{\|class="wikitable"		{\|class="wikitable"

Santiago Pinault at 01:42, 1 September 2019

2019-09-01T01:42:47Z

Santiago Pinault at 01:39, 1 September 2019

2019-09-01T01:39:53Z

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	Perhaps more has been revealed to us than knowledge of death from the story of the Fall of Man - I think this vision of abundance derives from the legend of man's original state - the Garden of Eden. We have not resigned ourselves to its loss - we have engaged in a fierce, irresistible, ruthless, and sometimes mad drive to recapture the vision on earth.		Perhaps more has been revealed to us than knowledge of death from the story of the Fall of Man - I think this vision of abundance derives from the legend of man's original state - the Garden of Eden. We have not resigned ourselves to its loss - we have engaged in a fierce, irresistible, ruthless, and sometimes mad drive to recapture the vision on earth.

	You have talked about a compulsive, eschatological element in Christianity, with Jesus believing that the end of the world was imminent. ([[Abraham_Rotstein,_Weekend_Notes_I#The_Reality_of_Society\|Notes on Feb. 25/26 p. 5]]) ~~I wonder whether both Jewish Messianic eschatology~~ (~~sometimes cited as the impulse for "progress" of our society~~) ~~and the Christian [~~114~~] notion of the Kingdom of Heaven aren~~'~~t partial images of the lost Garden of~~ Eden, ~~even~~ allowing for significant differences in oral visions. Interestingly enough, non of the three have economies. (Adam is only a curator).		You have talked about a compulsive, eschatological element in Christianity, with Jesus believing that the end of the world was imminent. ([[Abraham_Rotstein,_Weekend_Notes_I#The_Reality_of_Society\|Notes on Feb. 25/26 p. 5]]) Je me demande si à la fois le messianisme juif eschatologique (parfois cité comme étant le moteur du “progrès” de notre société) et la notion chrétienne {{Page \|n°=114}} du Royaume du Paradis ne sont pas des images partielles du Jardin d'Eden perdu, même allowing for significant differences in oral visions. Interestingly enough, non of the three have economies. (Adam is only a curator).

	The Fall of Man has given us the revelation of abundance as well as the notion that the present state of the economy is a curse - the substantive content of man's atonement:		The Fall of Man has given us the revelation of abundance as well as the notion that the present state of the economy is a curse - the substantive content of man's atonement:

Santiago Pinault at 12:24, 24 August 2018

2018-08-24T12:24:22Z

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			{{Anglais vers français}}
	Dear Professor Polanyi,		Dear Professor Polanyi,

Santiago Pinault at 12:22, 24 August 2018

2018-08-24T12:22:30Z

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	Might an impulse of rage and frustration at the knowledge of death and the moral person have added impetus to our rebellion against expulsion from Eden?		Might an impulse of rage and frustration at the knowledge of death and the moral person have added impetus to our rebellion against expulsion from Eden?

	[116] It would seem then that in relativizing the industrial economy we are embedding a process of enormous force, unlimited ambition and with deep roots in our consciousness. The final meaning of abundance is freedom from Nature's pressure and so the balance of freedom<ref group="p">"balance of freedom"underlined.</ref> won is the overall guide for the absorption of this process into society.		{{Page \|n°=116}} It would seem then that in relativizing the industrial economy we are embedding a process of enormous force, unlimited ambition and with deep roots in our consciousness. The final meaning of abundance is freedom from Nature's pressure and so the balance of freedom<ref group="p">"balance of freedom"underlined.</ref> won is the overall guide for the absorption of this process into society.

	~~In sum~~:<br />		Pour résumer :<br />
	~~The irrational compulsive~~ force ~~of industrialism may derive from some element in our consciousness related to a vision of abundance and a compulsive drive to conquer the economic problem~~. ~~It is suggested that the abundance and curse of the 'Fall of Man' provide these elements~~. ~~If the economy is a curse and our body sinful~~, ~~then the capricious scarcity of~~ Nature ~~is just punishment~~, ~~and we must resign ourselves to it~~. ~~Defiance would seem to lead to the reverse side of the coin~~: gain ~~and abundance~~. ~~An understanding of industrialism's~~ source ~~would aid in its absorption in society with its contribution to freedom as our ultimate criterion~~.		Les forces irrationnelles et irrépressibles de l’industrialisme peuvent venir de quelque élément de notre conscience liée à une vision de l’abondance et une force irrépressible poussant à régler le problème économique. Il est suggéré que l’abondance et la malédiction de la Chute de l’Homme proviennent de ces éléments. Si l’économie est une malédiction et si notre corps est peccamineux, alors la rareté de la Nature est bien une punition, et nous devons nous y résigner. Le défi semblerait mener à l’autre face de la pièce : le gain et l’abondance. Une compréhension de la source de l’industrialisme aiderait à ce qu’il soit absorbé dans la société et qu’il contribue à la liberté, puisque c’est notre critère ultime.

	[117] The above is offered to you with some hesitation as an exercise in speculation. I hope it proves of some interest and I am most anxious to have your comments. I think that I have hold of something here, but I'm not quite sure which are the essential propositions.

	~~[… (personal matters)]~~		{{Page \|n°=117}} The above is offered to you with some hesitation as an exercise in speculation. I hope it proves of some interest and I am most anxious to have your comments. I think that I have hold of something here, but I'm not quite sure which are the essential propositions.

	~~<span style="font-family:Book Antiqua; font-style: oblique; margin-left:200px;">Abe</span>~~		[… (sujets personnels)]

	== Polanyi~~'s Pencil Additions~~ ==		<span class="hand-written" margin-left:200px;">Abe</span>

			== Ajouts de Polanyi au stylo ==

	<references group="p" />		<references group="p" />

	== Editors Notes ==		== Editors Notes de l'éditeur ==

	<references />		<references />

Santiago Pinault: Created page with "Dear Professor Polanyi, I continue to be preoccupied with the meaning of industrialism, for its very uniqueness requires a deeper understanding of its mainsprings and its sig..."

2018-08-24T11:12:10Z

Created page with "Dear Professor Polanyi, I continue to be preoccupied with the meaning of industrialism, for its very uniqueness requires a deeper understanding of its mainsprings and its sig..."

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Dear Professor Polanyi,

I continue to be preoccupied with the meaning of industrialism, for its very uniqueness requires a deeper understanding of its mainsprings and its significance before we may determine its place in society.<ref group="p">It's doubtful whether the 'place' in society of a historically unique development can be determined at all.</ref>

On a superficial level industrial economic policy is self-evident - (I quote from the recent international GATT agreement:) "The broad objectives of international trade and economic endeavour which all countries share, i.e. raising standards of living, increasing real incomes, developing the world's resources, and expanding the production and exchange of goods". One is struck by the unquestioned universality of this objective on the one hand, and its relatively recent ascendancy. Of course the problem of livelihood has always necessitated production, but behold the array of "raising", "increasing", "developing" and "expanding". I believe this is a unique and distinct element of our consciousness.<ref group="p">Yes. But it is not {raher} its place in the history of civilization you are trying to fix? "Society" and even consciousness are not synonymous for civilization</ref> - It relates<ref group="p">Seems to relate.</ref> to the industrial solution to the problem of the economy.<ref group="p">But does it - that is the question.</ref> You mentioned once, with reference to the use of machines for production that "it is an irrational cultural factor which is untraceable" ([[Abraham_Rotstein,_Weekend_Notes_I#p19|Notes of Feb. 25/26, p. 17]])<ref>19, on the archives pagination.</ref>.

Je pense que votre discussion sur la formation de l’esprit occidental au travers de révélations successives, est une conception religieuse puissante et brillante. Il paraît ainsi que les pierres de touche de notre conscience sont toutes reliées à une révélation unique.
Au-delà les principales valeurs de nos institutions dériveraient de ces révélations.

Je pense que notre impulsion refoulée [“entrenched ”] et compulsive pour “plus” en Occident – de laquelle l’industrialisation est la servante – a derrière elle une formidable vision de l’abondance sur Terre. De plus, on oublie souvent ce facteur, c’est que la technologie industrielle ne nous fournit pas seulement de l’abondance mais la certitude, effectivement apaisante, de vaincre la pression des aspects de la nature qui sont erratique et capricieux, comme les tempêtes, les famines, les épidémies de peste, etc. (Le terme ‘abondance’ est utilisé ici pour comprendre ces deux éléments. Jusqu’à ce que cela soit achevé nous devrons vivre dans une condition de “rareté” perpétuelle.)
Peut-être qu’a été révélé plus que la conscience de la mort dans l’histoire de la Chute de l’Homme – Je pense que cette vision de l’abondance vient de la légende l’homme à l’état originel – le Jardin d’Eden. Nous ne nous sommes pas résignés à cette perte – nous nous sommes engagés dans lancée féroce, irrésistible, rude et parfois folles vers la recapture de cette vision, sur Terre.

Vous avez parlé d’un élément irrépressiblement eschatologique dans le Christianisme, et Jésus pensant que la fin du monde était imminente. Je me demande si tant l’eschatologie messianique juive (parfois décrite comme l’impulsion pour les “progrès” de notre société) et la notion chrétienne de Royaume des Cieux ne sont pas des images partielles du Paradis perdu d’Eden, au-delà même de leurs quelques différences signifiantes lorsqu’on les conte. Il est assez intéressant de voir qu’aucun des droits n’avaient d’économie. (Adam est le seul curateur).
La Chute de l’Homme nous a donné la révélation de l’abondance tout comme la notion de l’état de l’économie actuelle est une malédiction – le contenu substantive de l’expiation de l’homme :
Yahweh Dieu dit au serpent: “Parce que tu as fait cela, tu es maudit entre tous les animaux domestiques et toutes les bêtes des champs; tu marcheras sur ton ventre, et tu mangeras la poussière tous les jours de ta vie. […]

I think your discussion of the formation of the Western mind through successive revelations, is a massive brilliant and religious conception. It seems then, that the keystones of our consciousness each relate to a unique revelation.

{{Page |n°=113}} Furher, the major values of our institutions would derive from these revelations.

I think that the entrenched compulsive drive for "more" of the West - of which industrial is the servant - has behind it a great vision of abundance on earth. In addition, a factor which is sometimes lost sight of, is that industrial technology provides not only abundance but certainty<ref group="p">And {useless} new hazards "thrills", threats plagues, and storms.</ref>, effectively alleviating that aspect of Nature's pressure which is erratic and capricious e.g. storms, famines, plagues, etc. (The term abundance is used here to comprise both these elements. Until it is achieved we shall be in a condition of perpetual "scarcity".)<ref group="p">The dizzy feats were Not in the 'abundance' direction, the "Great Western", the transatlantic cable, the Zeppelin, the North Pole drive, the Eiffel Tower, that symbole of it al. Now T.V., radio radar, submarine, the car…</ref>

Perhaps more has been revealed to us than knowledge of death from the story of the Fall of Man - I think this vision of abundance derives from the legend of man's original state - the Garden of Eden. We have not resigned ourselves to its loss - we have engaged in a fierce, irresistible, ruthless, and sometimes mad drive to recapture the vision on earth.

You have talked about a compulsive, eschatological element in Christianity, with Jesus believing that the end of the world was imminent. ([[Abraham_Rotstein,_Weekend_Notes_I#The_Reality_of_Society|Notes on Feb. 25/26 p. 5]]) I wonder whether both Jewish Messianic eschatology (sometimes cited as the impulse for "progress" of our society) and the Christian [114] notion of the Kingdom of Heaven aren't partial images of the lost Garden of Eden, even allowing for significant differences in oral visions. Interestingly enough, non of the three have economies. (Adam is only a curator).

The Fall of Man has given us the revelation of abundance as well as the notion that the present state of the economy is a curse - the substantive content of man's atonement:
<poem>"Cursed is the ground for thy sake;
in toil shalt thou eat of it all
the days of thy life. Thorns<ref group="p">Absence of irrigation!</ref>also
and thistles shall it bring forth to thee;
and thou shalt eat the herb of the field.
In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat
bread<ref group="p">bread is made of wheat only Not of {barly} millet, etc. - only meal!</ref> till thou return unto the ground;
for out of it wast thou taken; for dust thou
art and unto dust thou shalt return."</poem><ref>Genesis 3:14-19.</ref>

The very stringency of the curse and, the juxtaposition of the economy and death would presume to invoke the same total resignation to both. The moral and religious axis on which the Western World rested up to the time of the Reformation would implicitly have accepted this resignation.<ref group="p">Interesting thought -but No evidence support it.</ref> The embeddedness of the economy was maintained by a religious view where important technological innovations for production would have been almost sinful or occult, while paradise was for the nonce, deflected to the heavens. There, existence was bodyless, while our material dependence on earth was uncomfortably regarded with some measure of guilt as a symbol of weakness and sin to be superseded eventually in the Kingdom of Heaven.<ref group="p">No evidence, insofar as I can see.</ref>

[115] However, the mature response to these elements of man's fate, (death and the economy) each demand precisely opposite reactions - resignation where we can do nothing, and action where we can. To defy the curse was to try to regain abundance. It would seem that the Reformation was a necessary prelude to the Industrial Revolution.<ref group="p">But the Reformation finally {acapl} the curse. Luther Calvin rediscovered H Augustinism.</ref>

Man's visions of utopia gradually altered from moral or political establishments and became distinctly abundance - centered at about this time, beginning with the early Socialists. It would seem that they were the first to sense the portent of abundance behind the chaotic changes coming over Europe.<ref group="p">[It would… Europe] I agree</ref>

To what extent, do you think, is the mature response of resignation really characteristic of our reaction to revelation?

<poem>"Do not go gently into that dark night,
Rage, rage against the passing of the light,
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dylan_Thomas Dylan Thomas])</poem>

Might an impulse of rage and frustration at the knowledge of death and the moral person have added impetus to our rebellion against expulsion from Eden?

[116] It would seem then that in relativizing the industrial economy we are embedding a process of enormous force, unlimited ambition and with deep roots in our consciousness. The final meaning of abundance is freedom from Nature's pressure and so the balance of freedom<ref group="p">"balance of freedom"underlined.</ref> won is the overall guide for the absorption of this process into society.

In sum: 
The irrational compulsive force of industrialism may derive from some element in our consciousness related to a vision of abundance and a compulsive drive to conquer the economic problem. It is suggested that the abundance and curse of the 'Fall of Man' provide these elements. If the economy is a curse and our body sinful, then the capricious scarcity of Nature is just punishment, and we must resign ourselves to it. Defiance would seem to lead to the reverse side of the coin: gain and abundance. An understanding of industrialism's source would aid in its absorption in society with its contribution to freedom as our ultimate criterion.

[117] The above is offered to you with some hesitation as an exercise in speculation. I hope it proves of some interest and I am most anxious to have your comments. I think that I have hold of something here, but I'm not quite sure which are the essential propositions.

[… (personal matters)]

Abe

== Polanyi's Pencil Additions ==

<references group="p" />

== Editors Notes ==

<references />

== Informations sur la lettre ==
'''AKP''' : [[49/05]], 112-117
'''Autres langues''' :
{|class="wikitable"
! Lg
! Nom
|-
| EN
| [[From Abraham Rotstein (10 July 1956)]]
|-
| DE
|
|}

← Older revision		Revision as of 15:48, 8 September 2019
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	Peut-être que plus que la conscience de la mort nous a été révélé avec l'histoire de la Chute de l'Homme - je pense que cette conception de l'abondance provient de la légende de l'état original de l'être humain - le Jardin d'Eden. We have not resigned ourselves to its loss - we have engaged in a fierce, irresistible, ruthless, and sometimes mad drive to recapture the vision on earth.		Peut-être que plus que la conscience de la mort nous a été révélé avec l'histoire de la Chute de l'Homme - je pense que cette conception de l'abondance provient de la légende de l'état original de l'être humain - le Jardin d'Eden. We have not resigned ourselves to its loss - we have engaged in a fierce, irresistible, ruthless, and sometimes mad drive to recapture the vision on earth.

	Vous avez parlé d'un élément compulsif [“compulsive”], eschatologique de la Chrétienté, avec Jésus croyant que la fin du monde était imminente. ([[Abraham_Rotstein,_Notes_de_fin_de_semaine_I#~~La_Réalité_de_la_société~~\|Notes on Feb. 25/26 p. 5]]) Je me demande si à la fois le messianisme juif eschatologique (parfois cité comme étant le moteur du “progrès” de notre société) et la notion chrétienne {{Page \|n°=114}} du Royaume du Paradis ne sont pas des images partielles du Jardin d'Eden perdu, même allowing for significant differences in oral visions. ~~Interestingly enough, non of the three have economies~~. (Adam ~~is only a curator~~).		Vous avez parlé d'un élément compulsif [“compulsive”], eschatologique de la Chrétienté, avec Jésus croyant que la fin du monde était imminente. ([[Abraham_Rotstein,_Notes_de_fin_de_semaine_I#La_r.C3.A9alit.C3.A9_de_la_soci.C3.A9t.C3.A9\|Notes on Feb. 25/26 p. 5]]) Je me demande si à la fois le messianisme juif eschatologique (parfois cité comme étant le moteur du “progrès” de notre société) et la notion chrétienne {{Page \|n°=114}} du Royaume du Paradis ne sont pas des images partielles du Jardin d'Eden perdu, même allowing for significant differences in oral visions. C'est assez intéressant de voir que les trois n'ont pas d'économie. (Adam est seulement le médecin/le conservateur [“curator”]).

	~~The Fall of Man has given us the revelation of abundance~~ as well as the notion that the present state of the economy is a curse - ~~the substantive content of man~~'~~s atonement~~:		La Chute de l'Homme nous a donné la révélation de l'abondance as well as the notion that the present state of the economy is a curse - le contenu substantif de l'expiation Homme:
	<poem>"Cursed is the ground for thy sake;		<poem>"Cursed is the ground for thy sake;
	in toil shalt thou eat of it all		in toil shalt thou eat of it all
Line 35:		Line 35:
	bread<ref group="p">bread is made of wheat only Not of {barly} millet, etc. - only meal!</ref> till thou return unto the ground;		bread<ref group="p">bread is made of wheat only Not of {barly} millet, etc. - only meal!</ref> till thou return unto the ground;
	for out of it wast thou taken; for dust thou		for out of it wast thou taken; for dust thou
	art and unto dust thou shalt return."</poem><ref>~~Genesis~~ 3:14-19.</ref>		art and unto dust thou shalt return."</poem><ref>Genèse 3:14-19.</ref>

	The very stringency of the curse and, the juxtaposition of the economy and death would presume to invoke the same total resignation to both. The moral and religious axis on which the Western World rested up to the time of the Reformation would implicitly have accepted this resignation.<ref group="p">Interesting thought -but No evidence support it.</ref> The embeddedness of the economy was maintained by a religious view where important technological innovations for production would have been almost sinful or occult, while paradise was for the nonce, deflected to the heavens. There, existence was bodyless, while our material dependence on earth was uncomfortably regarded with some measure of guilt as a symbol of weakness and sin to be superseded eventually in the Kingdom of Heaven.<ref group="p">No evidence, insofar as I can see.</ref>		The very stringency of the curse and, the juxtaposition of the economy and death would presume to invoke the same total resignation to both. The moral and religious axis on which the Western World rested up to the time of the Reformation would implicitly have accepted this resignation.<ref group="p">Interesting thought -but No evidence support it.</ref> The embeddedness of the economy was maintained by a religious view where important technological innovations for production would have been almost sinful or occult, while paradise was for the nonce, deflected to the heavens. There, existence was bodyless, while our material dependence on earth was uncomfortably regarded with some measure of guilt as a symbol of weakness and sin to be superseded eventually in the Kingdom of Heaven.<ref group="p">No evidence, insofar as I can see.</ref>

	[115] However, the mature response to these elements of man's fate, (death and the economy) each demand precisely opposite reactions - resignation where we can do nothing, and action where we can. To defy the curse was to try to regain abundance. It would seem that the Reformation was a necessary prelude to the Industrial Revolution.<ref group="p">But the Reformation <u>finally {acapl}</u> the curse. Luther Calvin ~~rediscovered~~ H ~~Augustinism~~.</ref>		{{Page \|n°=115}} However, the mature response to these elements of man's fate, (death and the economy) each demand precisely opposite reactions - resignation where we can do nothing, and action where we can. To defy the curse was to try to regain abundance. It would seem that the Reformation was a necessary prelude to the Industrial Revolution.<ref group="p">But the Reformation <u>finally {acapl}</u> the curse. Luther Calvin a redécouvert H Augustinisme.</ref>

	Man's visions of utopia gradually altered from moral or political establishments and became distinctly abundance - centered at about this time, beginning with the early Socialists. It would seem that they were the first to sense the portent of abundance behind the chaotic changes coming over Europe.<ref group="p">[It would… Europe] I agree</ref>		Man's visions of utopia gradually altered from moral or political establishments and became distinctly abundance - centered at about this time, beginning with the early Socialists. It would seem that they were the first to sense the portent of abundance behind the chaotic changes coming over Europe.<ref group="p">[It would… Europe] I agree</ref>
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	<references group="p" />		<references group="p" />

	== ~~Editors~~ Notes de l'éditeur ==		== Notes de l'éditeur ==

	<references />		<references />

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	{{Anglais vers français}}		{{Anglais vers français}}
	~~Dear Professor~~ Polanyi,		Cher Professeur Polanyi,

	I continue ~~to be preoccupied with the meaning of industrialism~~, for its very uniqueness requires a deeper understanding of its mainsprings and its significance before we may determine ~~its~~ place ~~in society~~.<ref group="p">It's doubtful whether the 'place' in society of a historically unique development can be determined at all.</ref>		Je continue d'être préoccupé par le sens de l'industrialisation, for its very uniqueness requires a deeper understanding of its mainsprings and its significance before we may determine sa place dans la société.<ref group="p">It's doubtful whether the 'place' in society of a historically unique development can be determined at all.</ref>

	On a superficial level industrial economic policy is self-evident - (I quote from the recent international GATT agreement:) "The broad objectives of international trade and economic endeavour which all countries share, i.e. raising standards of living, increasing real incomes, developing the world's resources, and expanding the production and exchange of goods". One is struck by the unquestioned universality of this objective on the one hand, and its relatively recent ascendancy. Of course the problem of livelihood has always necessitated production, but behold the array of "raising", "increasing", "developing" and "expanding". I believe this is a unique and distinct element of our consciousness.<ref group="p">Yes. But it is not {raher} its place in the history of civilization you are trying to fix? "Society" and even consciousness are not synonymous for civilization</ref> - It relates<ref group="p">Seems to relate.</ref> to the industrial solution to the problem of the economy.<ref group="p">But does it - that is the question.</ref> You mentioned once, with reference to the use of machines for production that "it is an irrational cultural factor which is untraceable" ([[Abraham_Rotstein,_Weekend_Notes_I#p19\|Notes of Feb. 25/26, p. 17]])<ref>19, on the archives pagination.</ref>.		On a superficial level industrial economic policy is self-evident - (I quote from the recent international GATT agreement:) "The broad objectives of international trade and economic endeavour which all countries share, i.e. raising standards of living, increasing real incomes, developing the world's resources, and expanding the production and exchange of goods". One is struck by the unquestioned universality of this objective on the one hand, and its relatively recent ascendancy. Of course the problem of livelihood has always necessitated production, but behold the array of "raising", "increasing", "developing" and "expanding". I believe this is a unique and distinct element of our consciousness.<ref group="p">Yes. But it is not {raher} its place in the history of civilization you are trying to fix? "Society" and even consciousness are not synonymous for civilization</ref> - It relates<ref group="p">Seems to relate.</ref> to the industrial solution to the problem of the economy.<ref group="p">But does it - that is the question.</ref> You mentioned once, with reference to the use of machines for production that "it is an irrational cultural factor which is untraceable" ([[Abraham_Rotstein,_Weekend_Notes_I#p19\|Notes of Feb. 25/26, p. 17]])<ref>19, on the archives pagination.</ref>.
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	Au-delà les principales valeurs de nos institutions dériveraient de ces révélations.		Au-delà les principales valeurs de nos institutions dériveraient de ces révélations.

	Je pense que notre impulsion refoulée [“entrenched ”] et compulsive pour “plus” en Occident – de laquelle l’industrialisation est la servante – a derrière elle une formidable vision de l’abondance sur Terre. De plus, on oublie souvent ce facteur, c’est que la technologie industrielle ne nous fournit pas seulement de l’abondance mais la certitude, effectivement apaisante, de vaincre la pression des aspects de la nature qui sont erratique et capricieux, comme les tempêtes, les famines, les épidémies de peste, etc. (Le terme ‘abondance’ est utilisé ici pour comprendre ces deux éléments. Jusqu’à ce que cela soit achevé nous devrons vivre dans une condition de “rareté” perpétuelle.)		Je pense que notre impulsion refoulée [“entrenched ”] et compulsive pour “plus” en Occident – de laquelle l’industrialisation est la servante – a derrière elle une formidable vision de l’abondance sur Terre. De plus, on oublie souvent ce facteur, c’est que la technologie industrielle ne nous fournit pas seulement de l’abondance mais la certitude, effectivement apaisante, de vaincre la pression des aspects de la nature qui sont erratique et capricieux, comme les tempêtes, les famines, les épidémies de peste, etc. (Le terme ‘abondance’ est utilisé ici pour comprendre ces deux éléments. Jusqu’à ce que cela soit achevé nous devrons vivre dans une condition de “rareté” perpétuelle.)<br />
	Peut-être qu’a été révélé plus que la conscience de la mort dans l’histoire de la Chute de l’Homme – Je pense que cette vision de l’abondance vient de la légende l’homme à l’état originel – le Jardin d’Eden. Nous ne nous sommes pas résignés à cette perte – nous nous sommes engagés dans lancée féroce, irrésistible, rude et parfois folles vers la recapture de cette vision, sur Terre.		Peut-être qu’a été révélé plus que la conscience de la mort dans l’histoire de la Chute de l’Homme – Je pense que cette vision de l’abondance vient de la légende l’homme à l’état originel – le Jardin d’Eden. Nous ne nous sommes pas résignés à cette perte – nous nous sommes engagés dans une lancée féroce, irrésistible, rude et parfois folles vers la recapture de cette vision, sur Terre.

	Vous avez parlé d’un élément irrépressiblement eschatologique dans le Christianisme, et Jésus pensant que la fin du monde était imminente. Je me demande si tant l’eschatologie messianique juive (parfois décrite comme l’impulsion pour les “progrès” de notre société) et la notion chrétienne de Royaume des Cieux ne sont pas des images partielles du Paradis perdu d’Eden, au-delà même de leurs quelques différences signifiantes lorsqu’on les conte. Il est assez intéressant de voir qu’aucun des droits n’avaient d’économie. (Adam est le seul curateur).		Vous avez parlé d’un élément irrépressiblement eschatologique dans le Christianisme, et Jésus pensant que la fin du monde était imminente. Je me demande si tant l’eschatologie messianique juive (parfois décrite comme l’impulsion pour les “progrès” de notre société) et la notion chrétienne de Royaume des Cieux ne sont pas des images partielles du Paradis perdu d’Eden, au-delà même de leurs quelques différences signifiantes lorsqu’on les conte. Il est assez intéressant de voir qu’aucun des droits n’avaient d’économie. (Adam est le seul curateur).
	La Chute de l’Homme nous a donné la révélation de l’abondance tout comme la notion de l’état de l’économie actuelle est une malédiction – le contenu substantive de l’expiation de l’homme :		La Chute de l’Homme nous a donné la révélation de l’abondance tout comme la notion de l’état de l’économie actuelle est une malédiction – le contenu substantive de l’expiation de l’homme :<br />
	Yahweh Dieu dit au serpent: “Parce que tu as fait cela, tu es maudit entre tous les animaux domestiques et toutes les bêtes des champs; tu marcheras sur ton ventre, et tu mangeras la poussière tous les jours de ta vie. […]		Yahweh Dieu dit au serpent: “Parce que tu as fait cela, tu es maudit entre tous les animaux domestiques et toutes les bêtes des champs; tu marcheras sur ton ventre, et tu mangeras la poussière tous les jours de ta vie. […]

	~~I think~~ your discussion of the formation of the Western mind through successive revelations, is a massive brilliant and religious conception. It seems then, that the keystones of our consciousness each relate to a unique revelation.		Je pense your discussion of the formation of the Western mind through successive revelations, is a massive brilliant and religious conception. It seems then, that the keystones of our consciousness each relate to a unique revelation.

	{{Page \|n°=113}} Furher, the major values of our institutions would derive from these revelations.		{{Page \|n°=113}} Furher, the major values of our institutions would derive from these revelations.