Irene Grant’s conversation with Kari Levitt - Revision history

Santiago: /* Organizations Irene Grant spoke about */

2020-02-19T16:29:15Z

Organizations Irene Grant spoke about

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	* Society for the Protection of Science and Learning (SPSL)		* Society for the Protection of Science and Learning (SPSL)
	* The Society of Visiting Scientists (SVS)		* The Society of Visiting Scientists (SVS)
			* Student Christian Movement (SCM)
	* The World Student Christian Federation (WSCF)		* The World Student Christian Federation (WSCF)
	* World University Service (WUS)		* World University Service (WUS)
	* Young Men's Christian Association (YMCA)		* Young Men's Christian Association (YMCA)
	* Student Christian Movement (SCM)

	== Persons Irene Grant spoke about ==		== Persons Irene Grant spoke about ==

Santiago Pinault at 19:42, 15 October 2019

2019-10-15T19:42:13Z

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	K: On this tape I recorded some of the explanations which Ireni gave as we were going through the three boxes of Christian Left material and on the remainder of the tape, I will record, from my notes, any additional information. There is a photo of{Shram} in a May Parade in London carrying the Christian Left flag with Leonard Schiff and the man whom she identified as Father Iredell in front. But Ireni then later thought that perhaps he was in fact Father Grosser I think, he is Father Grosser myself. Zoe Fairfield was the General Secretary of the Auxiliary Movement and the address of the Auxiliary Movement was in Annandale, North End Road Golders Green. Concerning Ireni's rough translation of the Landshut and Mayer', Leipzing edition of <u>Nationalokonomie und Philosophie</u>, it was most remarkable. There are many drafts if Ireni's translations, very carefully done. It is of course the work which we know as Economic and Philosophical Manuscripts (of 1844) and it does indeed appear to be case that German language volume, from which these {{Page \|n°=27}} translations were made by Ireni in London, were published in Leipzig, probably in [[1932]] and were physically exported to Switzerland, the Leipzig publications, from whence they were obtained by the Christian Left. They were not published in Switzerland but they were smuggled out to Switzerland. With respect to the “Bulletins” and Polanyi's role in the “Bulletins”, Ireni said 'There were no “Bulletins” with which Karli had nothing to do. But he was particularly concerned with, and, indeed drafted and wrote the 'Bulletins', that is the 'Christian Left Bulletins', dealing with 1) Trotskyism, 2) The Study on the Early works of Karl Marx, 3) The Bulletin titled 'Russia and the World'. The Bulletins dealing with Chartists were principally the work of Kenneth Muir and the one advertised as "Working Class Culture in Vienna” never materialised. Instead there is a No.7 which, however, deals with Levellers and Diggers in the Cromwell period with Stanley (?). The project of “Working Class Culture in Vienna” is described on the tape. Regarding the [[1938]] statement of the Christian Left, it would appear, incidentally, that in about [[1937]] the Auxiliary Christian Left changed its name to the Christian Left and it was at that time that a great deal of work was done on drafting, so to speak, a Manifesto. The papers, which I have seen, the documents in Ireni's possession shows that Karl Polanyi was intimately concerned with the drafting of the group document and his corrections and edits are to be seen all over these documents. The individuals concerned with the foundation of the Christian Left were two Cass Beggs, David and Barbara Cass Beggs, Kenneth and Mary Muir, Donald and Irene Grant, Marjorie Young (now Reid), and this Kenneth Ridyard mentioned to me by McClelland. There was a meeting… in (<u>Newforest</u>?), maybe this is, in fact, the Q camp. It's not quite whether these Q Camps were in [[1935]] or in [[1938]]. That has yet to be established. The Q Camps, in any event, seem to deal, according to Ireni, more with social relations, questions of documentation in Ireni's possession…		K: On this tape I recorded some of the explanations which Ireni gave as we were going through the three boxes of Christian Left material and on the remainder of the tape, I will record, from my notes, any additional information. There is a photo of{Shram} in a May Parade in London carrying the Christian Left flag with Leonard Schiff and the man whom she identified as Father Iredell in front. But Ireni then later thought that perhaps he was in fact Father Grosser I think, he is Father Grosser myself. Zoe Fairfield was the General Secretary of the Auxiliary Movement and the address of the Auxiliary Movement was in Annandale, North End Road Golders Green. Concerning Ireni's rough translation of the Landshut and Mayer', Leipzing edition of <u>Nationalokonomie und Philosophie</u>, it was most remarkable. There are many drafts if Ireni's translations, very carefully done. It is of course the work which we know as Economic and Philosophical Manuscripts (of 1844) and it does indeed appear to be case that German language volume, from which these {{Page \|n°=27}} translations were made by Ireni in London, were published in Leipzig, probably in [[1932]] and were physically exported to Switzerland, the Leipzig publications, from whence they were obtained by the Christian Left. They were not published in Switzerland but they were smuggled out to Switzerland. With respect to the “Bulletins” and Polanyi's role in the “Bulletins”, Ireni said 'There were no “Bulletins” with which Karli had nothing to do. But he was particularly concerned with, and, indeed drafted and wrote the 'Bulletins', that is the 'Christian Left Bulletins', dealing with 1) Trotskyism, 2) The Study on the Early works of Karl Marx, 3) The Bulletin titled 'Russia and the World'. The Bulletins dealing with Chartists were principally the work of Kenneth Muir and the one advertised as "Working Class Culture in Vienna” never materialised.<ref>See [[Bulletins for Socialists]] <nowiki>[</nowiki>[[21/27]], 33].</ref> Instead there is a No.7 which, however, deals with Levellers and Diggers in the Cromwell period with Stanley (?). The project of “Working Class Culture in Vienna” is described on the tape. Regarding the [[1938]] statement of the Christian Left, it would appear, incidentally, that in about [[1937]] the Auxiliary Christian Left changed its name to the Christian Left and it was at that time that a great deal of work was done on drafting, so to speak, a Manifesto. The papers, which I have seen, the documents in Ireni's possession shows that Karl Polanyi was intimately concerned with the drafting of the group document and his corrections and edits are to be seen all over these documents. The individuals concerned with the foundation of the Christian Left were two Cass Beggs, David and Barbara Cass Beggs, Kenneth and Mary Muir, Donald and Irene Grant, Marjorie Young (now Reid), and this Kenneth Ridyard mentioned to me by McClelland. There was a meeting… in (<u>Newforest</u>?), maybe this is, in fact, the Q camp. It's not quite whether these Q Camps were in [[1935]] or in [[1938]]. That has yet to be established. The Q Camps, in any event, seem to deal, according to Ireni, more with social relations, questions of documentation in Ireni's possession…

	End of tape. There does not appear to be anything on the other side. [[#mw-page-base\|↑]]		End of tape. There does not appear to be anything on the other side. [[#mw-page-base\|↑]]

Santiago Pinault at 22:18, 10 October 2019

2019-10-10T22:18:39Z

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Santiago Pinault at 17:21, 20 August 2019

2019-08-20T17:21:38Z

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Santiago Pinault at 14:39, 20 August 2019

2019-08-20T14:39:12Z

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	K: They were <u>Anglican</u>, Church of England.		K: They were <u>Anglican</u>, Church of England.

	K: John Wesley never left the Anglican Church. He was an Anglican Church member until his death. But he was a rabblerouser of the first order outside the Church. In fact, Karli said, he almost made a revolution. He actually side-stepped it. So that, in this country, it's very difficult. Heaps and heaps of people will say to you that they are Christians, who never go inside a church door.		I: John Wesley never left the Anglican Church. He was an Anglican Church member until his death. But he was a rabblerouser of the first order outside the Church. In fact, Karli said, he almost made a revolution. He actually side-stepped it. So that, in this country, it's very difficult. Heaps and heaps of people will say to you that they are Christians, who never go inside a church door.

	K: But heaps of people who are asked, may say they are Christian, but they would not, certainly not in these times, be active as a social Christian in any type of social movement.		K: But heaps of people who are asked, may say they are Christian, but they would not, certainly not in these times, be active as a social Christian in any type of social movement.
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	I: You mean socialist?		I: You mean socialist?

	K: No, i mean social action, involved in things that are, so to speak, community oriented and are basically socially oriented, coming out of the Churches today. As Christians, they would do it within the framework of the Church or on a margin of the Church.		K: No, I mean social action, involved in things that are, so to speak, community oriented and are basically socially oriented, coming out of the Churches today. As Christians, they would do it within the framework of the Church or on a margin of the Church.

	I: Some would regard themselves as having done their Christian duty, where they are doing it in social work or whatever, without ever going to church. But if you ask them they would say, “Yes well, I feel I'm Christian.” Helen Kennipcott? is an exception. Helen? is a very active member on the left, inside the Anglican Church. She is not only a member of her Church she is also a teacher within the Church organization. She goes to synod; she takes part in all the structure, every single week… I'm perfectly certain, that if you asked her: “Do you do your W.E.A. teaching as a Christian?”, she would say, “Of course, I do.” Her husband is a Hindu and he is strongly in favour of her doing this because it gives meaning to all the other things they do. Now, Karli never went…		I: Some would regard themselves as having done their Christian duty, where they are doing it in social work or whatever, without ever going to church. But if you ask them they would say, “Yes well, I feel I'm Christian.” Helen Kennipcott? is an exception. Helen? is a very active member on the left, inside the Anglican Church. She is not only a member of her Church she is also a teacher within the Church organization. She goes to synod; she takes part in all the structure, every single week… I'm perfectly certain, that if you asked her: “Do you do your W.E.A. teaching as a Christian?”, she would say, “Of course, I do.” Her husband is a Hindu and he is strongly in favour of her doing this because it gives meaning to all the other things they do. Now, Karli never went…

Santiago Pinault at 14:07, 20 August 2019

2019-08-20T14:07:09Z

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	By apparition:		By apparition:
	Oscar Bock, Otto Bauer, Caspar Maier, Eugen Benedikt, Fritz Lener, Grossvater Kolnaï, Doug Jolly, Helen Turton, Esther Simpson (Tess), [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_Szilard Leo Szilard], the Cornfords, Kenneth Muir, Douglas McLean, Kenneth Ingram, Agnes Murray, Gilbert Murray, Leonard Schiff, Father Iredell / Iredale, John Strachey, Paul Tillich, John Grosser, Reinhold Niebuhr, x Tissingdon, Tatlow and these people, Father John Macmurray, Elisabeth MacMurray, Helen Ullman, Michael Fielding, Alfred Cannon, Jean McConnell, Trude Kurz, Norman Ridyard, Macky / Mac, Zoe Fairfield, x Casspegg, Barbara Beggs, Marjorie Young (= Marjorie Reid), Kenneth Ridyard<ref>See 27. Maybe KPL mix up Kenneth Muir and Norman Ridyard.</ref>, Edward x, John Wesley, Helen Kennipcott, x Mansfield, Tammy Streep.		Oscar Bock, Otto Bauer, Caspar Maier, Eugen Benedikt, Fritz Lener, Grossvater Kolnaï, Doug Jolly, Helen Turton, Esther Simpson (Tess), [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_Szilard Leo Szilard], the Cornfords, Kenneth Muir, Douglas McLean, Kenneth Ingram, Agnes Murray, Gilbert Murray, Leonard Schiff, Father Iredell / Iredale, John Strachey, Paul Tillich, John Grosser, Reinhold Niebuhr, x Tissingdon, Tatlow and these people, Father John Macmurray, Elisabeth MacMurray, Helen Ullman, Michael Fielding, Alfred Cannon, Jean McConnell, Trude Kurz, Norman Ridyard, Macky / Mac, Zoe Fairfield, x Casspegg, Barbara Beggs, Marjorie Young (= Marjorie Reid), Kenneth Ridyard<ref>See [[#p27\|p. 27]]. Maybe KPL mix up Kenneth Muir and Norman Ridyard.</ref>, Edward x, John Wesley, Helen Kennipcott, x Mansfield, Tammy Streep.

	== Editor's Notes ==		== Editor's Notes ==

Santiago Pinault at 10:15, 20 August 2019

2019-08-20T10:15:47Z

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Santiago Pinault at 10:09, 18 August 2019

2019-08-18T10:09:50Z

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	K: That was not Ravenscroft Avenue?		K: That was not Ravenscroft Avenue?

	I: That was a short time either before or after Ravenscroft. I can't {{Page \|n°=5}} remember. I think before. (Garbled), John (Macmurray) was the other so to speak high figure in the Christian Left. And he and Karli were in constant exchange. Karli regarded himself as being the Apocalyptic chap and they regarded John as being the great revolutionary with a more harmonious outcome. But outcome is the wrong word. Karli said his position was Apocalyptic in the end. John's philosophical position was… What's the word he used. It'll come to me when I'm not thinking. Anyway, John as you know was very widely read…		I: That was a short time either before or after Ravenscroft. I can't {{Page \|n°=5}} remember. I think before. (Garbled), John (Macmurray) was the other so to speak high figure in the [[Christian Left]]. And he and Karli were in constant exchange. Karli regarded himself as being the Apocalyptic chap and they regarded John as being the great revolutionary with a more harmonious outcome. But outcome is the wrong word. Karli said his position was Apocalyptic in the end. John's philosophical position was… What's the word he used. It'll come to me when I'm not thinking. Anyway, John as you know was very widely read…

	K: I had to read him, John Macmurray, in school, Philosophy. And I didn't understand a word of what he was writing in those days.		K: I had to read him, John Macmurray, in school, Philosophy. And I didn't understand a word of what he was writing in those days.
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	K: This document called '<u>Auxiliary Christian Left</u>'…		K: This document called '<u>Auxiliary Christian Left</u>'…

	I: By this time we had a name. The name was not Christian Left. It was still <u>Auxiliary Christian Left</u> because we were <u>inside</u> the <u>Auxiliary</u> of the <u>Student Christian Movement</u>…		I: By this time we had a name. The name was not [[Christian Left]]. It was still <u>Auxiliary Christian Left</u> because we were <u>inside</u> the <u>Auxiliary</u> of the <u>Student Christian Movement</u>…

	K: You think that this document was influenced by Karli or written by Karli.		K: You think that this document was influenced by Karli or written by Karli.
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	K: here you say 'Someone has my Volume 1 of the Landshut and Mayer edition of Marx' early works'. And you put [[1933]].		K: here you say 'Someone has my Volume 1 of the Landshut and Mayer edition of Marx' early works'. And you put [[1933]].

	I: When I was translating it… that was in our Christian Left group in Pycombe Corner. And it was done from the <u>first volume of this</u>.		I: When I was translating it… that was in our [[Christian Left]] group in Pycombe Corner. And it was done from the <u>first volume of this</u>.

	K: So it's the first <u>volume of Karl Marx 'Historische Materialismus'</u>… I think was may have this at home. I will absolutely look it up. (German) …Leipzig… and would you believe there is no date on it.		K: So it's the first <u>volume of Karl Marx 'Historische Materialismus'</u>… I think was may have this at home. I will absolutely look it up. (German) …Leipzig… and would you believe there is no date on it.

Santiago Pinault: /* Organizations Irene Grant spoke about */

2019-08-18T10:05:34Z

Organizations Irene Grant spoke about

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 == Organizations Irene Grant spoke about ==
-The International Fellowship of Reconciliation (IFOR), ''Menschheitkämpfer'', Society for the Protection of Science and Learning (SPSL), The Society of Visiting Scientists (SVS), The World Student Christian Federation (WSCF), Herrengall 30, The Austrian Student Relief => The European Student Relief, Young Men's Christian Association (YMCA), World University Service (WUS), Student Christian Movement (SCM), Pycombe Corner Group, The Q Camp.
+(Alphabetical order)
 == Persons Irene Grant spoke about ==

Santiago Pinault at 10:01, 18 August 2019

2019-08-18T10:01:13Z

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	K: But other than that he never had anything to do with any organized church?		K: But other than that he never had anything to do with any organized church?

	I: Not as far as I know. And I knew him very well. In fact, he and Betty and {{Page \|n°=33}} Donald and I, in [[1933]], when Karli came from Vienna and John was constantly in our joint flat, made a decision to have a joint set up as a family and to stay together as a family group. We didn't do it for a number of reasons. One was that John and Betty had no children because Betty had these nephews who were being brought up by a widowed mother, a very dear person ~~[…]~~		I: Not as far as I know. And I knew him very well. In fact, he and Betty and {{Page \|n°=33}} Donald and I, in [[1933]], when Karli came from Vienna and John was constantly in our joint flat, made a decision to have a joint set up as a family and to stay together as a family group. We didn't do it for a number of reasons. One was that John and Betty had no children because Betty had these nephews who were being brought up by a widowed mother, a very dear person but she wasn't an organizing person, they decided that they must make themselves responsible for these two children and that meant also their mother. And, therefore, this joint family thing never came up, but Karli knew about it and it very nearly did come up and John and Betty and Donald and I, as couples were very close. Now when it didn't come off, it didn't mean anything except that it didn't come off. As far as this was concerned, John continued just the same. And the fact that John and Betty, <u>because</u> of us, welcomed <u>Karli and had him there</u>, and I have no doubt at all that this was a very good thing from both points of view and it didn't last very long. But Karli knew John from the very first minute and John had reached the point, which I was proud to describe an anti-dualist, and in a way very close to the Marxian position about either you change the structure or it doesn't mean anything. He had already arrived there before the Christian Left group even started. So in a way, Kenneth's idea, that somehow Karli introduced John to Marx, is stupid. It's true in the sense that it suddenly became the centre of study.

			K: Well, why Marx became the centre of study at that time is not difficult to understand. What I still do not understand really, from what you've told me of John and Betty, or for that matter of yourself and Donald and my father, I do not understand from where came the idea of Christianity.

			I: Well, I was brought up as a Wesleyan Methodist. I've belonged to the Church all my life. Donald was never anything else.

	K: But you didn't actually go to church?		K: But you didn't actually go to church?

	{{Question}} I: Donald went pretty regularly until the time we went to Vienna. But he was was very much a dissident in the sense that he thought, when he went to prison, that it was the Church that was being wronged, not him. And I thought the same. And so, although Donald and I belonged to various Christian groups including the Student Movement and the Auxiliary and Donald actually for four and half was the secretary of the Student Christian Movement in New Zealand, so that our connections with Christian groups, who regarded themselves not as church-goers, was constant. Including my father, who was after all a <u>Wesleyan Methodist</u> missionary. But by the time I was a student, he was belonging with me almost outside his Church. So it's very difficult to define it. John regarded himself as a part of the body of Christian thought, even though he'd given the Presbyterian Church up long ago. The only people, well it isn't quite true, but the only people I can easily say had little groups inside the Church, being very left, were unknown Catholics, like in South Africa or South America, being Christians in spite of everything, helping guerillas and so on, well, I call those people who were, in fact, though inside their Church {{Page \|n°=34}} outside it, because they were never recognized these people.		{{Question}} I: Donald went pretty regularly until the time we went to Vienna. But he was was very much a dissident in the sense that he thought, when he went to prison, that it was the Church that was being wronged, not him. And I thought the same. And so, although Donald and I belonged to various Christian groups including the Student Movement and the Auxiliary and Donald actually for four and half was the secretary of the Student Christian Movement in New Zealand, so that our connections with Christian groups, who regarded themselves not as church-goers, was constant. Including my father, who was after all a <u>Wesleyan Methodist</u> missionary. But by the time I was a student, he was belonging with me almost outside his Church. So it's very difficult to define it. John regarded himself as a part of the body of Christian thought, even though he'd given the Presbyterian Church up long ago. The only people, well it isn't quite true, but the only people I can easily say had little groups inside the Church, being very left, were unknown Catholics, like in South Africa or South America, being Christians in spite of everything, helping guerillas and so on, well, I call those people who were, in fact, though inside their Church {{Page \|n°=34}} outside it, because they were never recognized these people. People in the <u>Anglican Church, like Needham, who always stayed with his Church, whether</u> he goes, I don't know. People like? in Thaxted and Noel at Thaxted stayed in their Church.

			K: They were <u>Anglican</u>, Church of England.

			K: John Wesley never left the Anglican Church. He was an Anglican Church member until his death. But he was a rabblerouser of the first order outside the Church. In fact, Karli said, he almost made a revolution. He actually side-stepped it. So that, in this country, it's very difficult. Heaps and heaps of people will say to you that they are Christians, who never go inside a church door.

	~~[…]~~		K: But heaps of people who are asked, may say they are Christian, but they would not, certainly not in these times, be active as a social Christian in any type of social movement.

			I: You mean socialist?

			K: No, i mean social action, involved in things that are, so to speak, community oriented and are basically socially oriented, coming out of the Churches today. As Christians, they would do it within the framework of the Church or on a margin of the Church.

			I: Some would regard themselves as having done their Christian duty, where they are doing it in social work or whatever, without ever going to church. But if you ask them they would say, “Yes well, I feel I'm Christian.” Helen Kennipcott? is an exception. Helen? is a very active member on the left, inside the Anglican Church. She is not only a member of her Church she is also a teacher within the Church organization. She goes to synod; she takes part in all the structure, every single week… I'm perfectly certain, that if you asked her: “Do you do your W.E.A. teaching as a Christian?”, she would say, “Of course, I do.” Her husband is a Hindu and he is strongly in favour of her doing this because it gives meaning to all the other things they do. Now, Karli never went…

	K: The biggest mystery then is really concerning my father with this Christian Left thing, because, (…) how is it that Karli got so mixed up with the Christian Left? I can understand how it is that he gave classes on the early Marx, because he was a great teacher and because he believed very much in what the early Marx was saying. But I find difficult to understand this apparent change from someone who, certainly in Vienna, was very secular.<br />		K: The biggest mystery then is really concerning my father with this Christian Left thing, because, (…) how is it that Karli got so mixed up with the Christian Left? I can understand how it is that he gave classes on the early Marx, because he was a great teacher and because he believed very much in what the early Marx was saying. But I find difficult to understand this apparent change from someone who, certainly in Vienna, was very secular.<br />
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	K: Would you know how he contacted the W.E.A.? I think it was GDH Cole, wasn't it?		K: Would you know how he contacted the W.E.A.? I think it was GDH Cole, wasn't it?

	I: …He went to see Cole and Cole thought very highly of Karli and Karli regarded Cole, in my opinion and I'm speaking only for myself, as a kind of rebirth of Owen. ~~[…] …to~~ say {{Page \|n°=36}} that it meant some kind of a turning point. That wouldn't be true. ~~[…]~~		I: …He went to see Cole and Cole thought very highly of Karli and Karli regarded Cole, in my opinion and I'm speaking only for myself, as a kind of rebirth of Owen. Of course he wasn't like that. Well of course with Cole the limerick comes in, the funny limerick, when he was having dinner with Cole in Oxford. I gave it to Margaret. That's very amusing but it's also very instructive. He was invited by Cole and he saw Cole on several occasions. Margaret is still alive but she wouldn't remember. There were some Fabians but who were they? I can't remember. (Irene says she will look for lists of members etc…) In Karli's existence I wouldn't like to say {{Page \|n°=36}} that it meant some kind of a turning point. That wouldn't be true. But it was a very big benchmark. He put a lot of trouble into it. So did John but John didn't have so much at stake. John had, so to speak, a professorship. …Karli had a lot at stake in the sense that everything he did was in some way determining what was going to happen. Including this.

			K: But if one were to take my father's work, take as a theme religion and its associates, morality and all that, there is the period before and during the First World War which one could call the Tolstoy period…… and then there's the London period, Christian Left.

			I: That is very important to this question here because Karli used to talk to me about it.

			K: Well, I would like to know what you can remember of it.

			I: Well, he said things like… Of course he knew the gospels. Whether or not that had anything to do with…

	K: But if one were to take my father's work, take as a theme religion and its associates, morality and all that, there is the period before and during the First World War which one could call the Tolstoy period…… and then there's the London period, Christian Left. ~~[…]~~ [[#mw-page-base\|↑]]		End of tape. [[#mw-page-base\|↑]]

	== Organizations Irene Grant spoke about ==		== Organizations Irene Grant spoke about ==
	The International Fellowship of Reconciliation (IFOR), ''Menschheitkämpfer'', Society for the Protection of Science and Learning (SPSL), The Society of Visiting Scientists (SVS), The World Student Christian Federation (WSCF), Herrengall 30, The Austrian Student Relief => The European Student Relief, Young Men's Christian Association (YMCA), World University Service (WUS), Student Christian Movement (SCM), Pycombe Corner Group, The Q Camp, .		The International Fellowship of Reconciliation (IFOR), ''Menschheitkämpfer'', Society for the Protection of Science and Learning (SPSL), The Society of Visiting Scientists (SVS), The World Student Christian Federation (WSCF), Herrengall 30, The Austrian Student Relief => The European Student Relief, Young Men's Christian Association (YMCA), World University Service (WUS), Student Christian Movement (SCM), Pycombe Corner Group, The Q Camp.

	== Persons Irene Grant spoke about ==		== Persons Irene Grant spoke about ==